AI ALIGNMENT FORUM
AF

All of bhauth's Comments + Replies

AGI Safety and Alignment at Google DeepMind: A Summary of Recent Work
bhauth
30

I don't expect such a huge gap between debaters and judges that the judge simply can't understand the debaters' concepts

You don't? But this is a major problem in arguments between people. The variation within humans is already more than enough for this! There's a gap like that every 35 IQ points or so. I don't understand why you're confident this isn't an issue.

I guess we've found our main disagreement, at least?

So in this particular case I am saying: if you penalize debaters that are inconsistent under cross-examination, you are giving an advantage t

... (read more)
Reply
2Rohin Shah
I'm not going to repeat all of the literature on debate here, but as brief pointers: * Factored cognition discusses intuitively why we can hope to approximate exponentially-sized trees of arguments (which would be tremendously bigger than arguments between people) * AI safety via debate makes the same argument for debate (by showing that a polynomial time judge can supervise PSPACE -- PSPACE-complete problems typically involve exponential-sized trees) * Cross-examination is discussed here * This paper discusses the experiments you'd do to figure out what the human judge should be doing to make debate more effective * The comments on this post discuss several reasons not to anchor to human institutions. There are even more reasons not to anchor to disagreements between people, but I didn't find a place where they've been written up with a short search. Most centrally, disagreements between people tend to focus on getting both people to understand their position, but the theoretical story for debate does not require this. (Also, the "arbitrary amounts of time and arbitrary amounts of explanation" was pretty central to my claim; human disagreements are way more bounded than that.)
AGI Safety and Alignment at Google DeepMind: A Summary of Recent Work
bhauth
10

If you want to disallow appeals to authority

I do, but more importantly, I want to disallow the judge understanding all the concepts here. Suppose the judge says to #1: "What is energy?" or "What is conservation?" and it can't be explained to them - what then?

Also, argument 1 isn't actually correct, E=mc^2 and so on.

That seems right, but why is it a problem? The honest strategy is fine under cross-examination, it will give consistent answers across contexts.

"The honest strategy"? If you have that, you can just ask it and not bother with the debate. I... (read more)

Reply
3Rohin Shah
I think I don't actually care about being robust to this assumption. Generally I think of arbitrarily-scalable-debate as depending on a universality assumption (which in turn would rule out "the judge can never understand the concepts"). But even if the universality assumption is false, it wouldn't bother me much; I don't expect such a huge gap between debaters and judges that the judge simply can't understand the debaters' concepts, even given arbitrary amounts of time and arbitrary amounts of explanation from the debaters. (Importantly, I would want to bootstrap alignment, to keep the gaps between debaters and the judge relatively small.) The general structure of a debate theorem is: if you set up the game in such-and-such way, then a strategy that simply answers honestly will dominate any other strategy. So in this particular case I am saying: if you penalize debaters that are inconsistent under cross-examination, you are giving an advantage to any debater that implements an honest strategy, and so you should expect training to incentivize honesty.
AGI Safety and Alignment at Google DeepMind: A Summary of Recent Work
bhauth
10

You can recursively decompose the claim "perpetual motion machines are known to be impossible" until you get down to a claim like "such and such experiment should have such and such outcome", which the boss can then perform to determine a winner.

Ah, I don't think you can. Making that kind of abstract conclusion from a practical number of experiments requires abstractions like potential energy, entropy, Noether's theorem, etc - which in this example, the judge doesn't understand. (Without such abstractions, you'd need to consider every possible type of m... (read more)

Reply
3Rohin Shah
I agree, but I don't see why that matters. As I mentioned, a main point of debate is to produce good oversight of claims without giving the judge an understanding of those claims. In this example I would imagine that you decompose the argument as: 1. A fundamental law of physics is conservation of energy: energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. 2. Electricity is a form of energy. 3. This box does not have an infinite source of energy. 4. The above three together imply that the box cannot produce infinite electricity. The inventor can disagree with one or more of these claims, then we sample one of the disagreements, and continue debating that one alone, ignoring all the others. This doesn't mean the judge understands the other claims, just that the judge isn't addressing them when deciding who wins the overall debate. If we recurse on #1, which I expect you think is the hardest one, then you could have a decomposition like "the principle has been tested many times", "in the tests, confirming evidence outweighs the disconfirming evidence", "there is an overwhelming scientific consensus behind it", "there is significant a priori theoretical support" (assuming that's true), "given the above the reasonable conclusion is to have very high confidence in conservation of energy". Again, find disagreements, sample one, recurse. It seems quite plausible to me that you get down to something fairly concrete relatively quickly. If you want to disallow appeals to authority, on the basis that the correct analogy is to superhuman AIs that know tons of stuff that aren't accepted by any authorities the judge trusts, I still think it's probably doable with a larger debate, but it's harder for me to play out what the debate would look like because I don't know in enough concrete detail the specific reasons why we believe conservation of energy to be true. I might also disagree that we should be thinking about such big gaps between
AGI Safety and Alignment at Google DeepMind: A Summary of Recent Work
bhauth
20

To clarify the 2nd point, here's an example. Suppose someone presents you with a large box that supposedly produces electricity endlessly. Your boss thinks it works, and you're debating the inventor in front of your boss.

"Perpetual motion machines are known to be impossible" you say, but your boss isn't familiar with that conceptual class or the reasoning involved.

The inventor says, "Here, let's plug in a thing, we can see that the box does in fact produce a little electricity." Your boss finds this very convincing.

The process proposed in the paper is some... (read more)

Reply
2Rohin Shah
There are several different outs to this example: * You should at least be able to argue that the evidence does not support the conclusion, and that the boss should have substantial probability on "the box can make some electricity but not infinitely much". * You can recursively decompose the claim "perpetual motion machines are known to be impossible" until you get down to a claim like "such and such experiment should have such and such outcome", which the boss can then perform to determine a winner. * This does not mean that the boss then understands why perpetual motion machines are impossible -- an important aspect of debate that it aims to produce good oversight of claims without giving the judge an understanding of those claims. * This particular approach will likely run into the problem of obfuscated arguments though. * The debaters are meant to be copies of the same AI, and to receive exactly the same information, with the hope that each knows what the other knows. In the example, this hopefully means that you understand how the inventor is tricking your boss, and you can simply point it out and explain it. * If the inventor legitimately believes the box produces infinite electricity, this won't work, but also I consider that out of scope for what debate needs to do. We're in the business of getting the best answer given the AI's knowledge, not the true answer. * If both you and the inventor know that the claim is impossible from theory, but don't know the local error that the inventor made, this won't work. * You can cross-examine the inventor and show that in other contexts they would agree that perpetual energy machines are impossible. (Roughly speaking, cross-examination = wiping memory and asking a new question.) Which paper are you referring to? If you mean doubly efficient debate, then I believe the way doubly efficient debate would be applied here is to argue about what the boss would conclude if he thought about it for a long time.
AGI Safety and Alignment at Google DeepMind: A Summary of Recent Work
bhauth
60

I took a look at the debate papers. I think that's a good angle to take, but they're missing some factors that sometimes make debates between humans fail.

  1. Humans and neural networks both have some implicit representation of probability distributions of output types. The basis behind "I can't explain why but that seems unlikely" can be more accurate than "here's an argument for why that will happen". You're basically delegating the problem of "making AI thinking explainable" to the AI itself, but if you could do that, you could just...make neural networks

... (read more)
Reply
Rohin Shah
*60

Strongly agree on the first challenge; on the theory workstream we're thinking about how to deal with this problem. Some past work (not from us) is here and here.

Though to be clear, I don't think the empirical evidence clearly rules out "just making neural networks explainable". Imo, if you wanted to do that, you would do things in the style of debate and prover-verifier games. These ideas just haven't been tried very much yet. I don't think "asking an AI what another AI is doing and doing RLHF on the response" is nearly as good; that is much more likely t... (read more)

Reply